those people on that cover were supposed to represent a group of people that would still live on into the new order.
in your best guess, how old were most of those 16 people at the time the photo was taken, and how many do you suppose are still alive today?.
remember, that wt was printed in 1984, nearly 27 years ago.
Those people on that cover were supposed to represent a group of people that would still live on into the New Order. In your best guess, how old were most of those 16 people at the time the photo was taken, and how many do you suppose are still alive today?
Remember, that WT was printed in 1984, nearly 27 years ago. Len.
david nelson passed away today.. many years ago (50's and 60's) i'd heard that the family had some ties to jw's in some fashion.
any truth to that one?.
len .
David Nelson passed away today.
Many years ago (50's and 60's) I'd heard that the family had some ties to JW's in some fashion. Any truth to that one?
Len
does anyone have any articles from outside media sources about the 1975 wt scandal that were written before or just after 1975?
i wanted to put that type of article side by side with the article regarding the may 2011 rapture prediction and see how they were similar.. does anyone have any of these outside news items about 1975?.
"Yes, but they never pinned it down. They never said the end would come in 1975.", some diehard JW's will say. Based upon what we've seen in this post, they alluded to it so overwhelmingly that anyone who lived during that time felt all the excitement. I was there.
Beyond that, we don't want to forget where they did pin it down during that time, a few years before 1975.
In 1971, within the pages of a new hardbound book, they must have felt that they were hedging their bets with plenty of cushion when they nailed the then present 20th century as the final one of this system.
" ...Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah - How? 1971, Chap. 12 pp. 216-217
Len
does anyone have any articles from outside media sources about the 1975 wt scandal that were written before or just after 1975?
i wanted to put that type of article side by side with the article regarding the may 2011 rapture prediction and see how they were similar.. does anyone have any of these outside news items about 1975?.
Under the draft laws as they existed in the USA in the late 60's and early 70's, conscientious objectors were required to do alternative civilian service, usually at jobs where they could replace workers who would be able to enter combat service. JW's were, of course, forbidden to do such alternative service at the time.
One of our frequent, and eloquent, posters is Terry. He can tell you all about the 18 (or so) months that he spent in prison during this time.
Jump in anytime, Terry, if you're out there.
Len
does anyone have any articles from outside media sources about the 1975 wt scandal that were written before or just after 1975?
i wanted to put that type of article side by side with the article regarding the may 2011 rapture prediction and see how they were similar.. does anyone have any of these outside news items about 1975?.
Here are a few more, re 1975, from the TIME archive. A bit of backwards reflection. Bolding is mine.
TIME, Monday, Feb. 13, 1978
GROWTH ARRESTED
Next to their end-of-the-world expectations and their refusal to accept blood transfusions, the Jehovah's Witnesses are most noted for their dogged door-to-door evangelism. For more than three decades, that has paid off with one of the steadiest records of growth in Western religion. Yet according to the Witnesses' new Yearbook, the number of active members in the U.S. dropped by 2.6% (to 530,374) for 1977, the first decrease since World War II. Worldwide, the Witnesses, who often suffer persecution overseas, declined by 1%. Besides that, the number of baptisms of new U.S. converts has dropped 65% over two years.
At their Brooklyn headquarters, the Witnesses suggest that the decrease in active members may stem from "a problem in receiving accurate reports" because of a new rotation system for officers of local congregations. Outsiders speculate that the Witnesses might be in trouble because of disappointment that the world did not end in 1975, as the faith's leaders had predicted. Reviewing the new figures, the official Watchtower newspaper comments: "As we approach the end, times get harder."
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,915927,00.html
TIME, Thursday, Oct. 15, 1992
Waiting for The End of the World
There's an undeniable tingle about 1,000 years. Some of it stems from the magical allure of special numbers, and some of it from Scripture. The 20th chapter of the New Testament book of Revelation (or Apocalypse) inscribes a famous vision of martyrs who "reigned with Christ a thousand years." This is the origin of the celebrated capital-M Millennium (from the Latin for thousand).
Most branches of Christianity agree with St. Augustine that the 1,000 years stand symbolically for the ongoing spiritual hegemony of Jesus Christ. An onward-and-upward millennial version holds that believers will gradually establish a kingdom of peace and righteousness on earth, preparing for Christ's Second Coming. There has always been a millenarian undercurrent, however, that rejects symbolism and holds Revelation 20 to mean that Jesus will return to rule an earthly kingdom for literally 1,000 years.
Millennial expectations and predictions have been occurring ever since the time of Jesus, but most, oddly, bear no relation to the actual beginning of new centuries. One of the bloodiest episodes came during the German Peasants' War of 1524-25, in which preacher Thomas Muntzer, whose ravings anticipated Marx by centuries, played a leading role. American preacher William Miller prophesied that Jesus would return in 1843 or 1844. Enthusiastic Millerites ; waited eagerly, only to see several deadlines pass uneventfully. Many Jehovah's Witnesses, led to expect the End, most recently in 1975, have left the apocalyptic group in confusion. The latest bout of millennial fever is said to be occurring among Christians in central China.
The remedy for such supposedly biblical miscalculations can be found in the Bible itself. Concerning the End, Jesus told his followers that "you know neither the day nor the hour." And St. Peter's second Epistle reminds believers that "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Good verses to memorize as Anno Domini 1999 approaches.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,976760,00.html
jehovah's witnesses are peaceful folks, just ask them.
having been one till many years ago i used to know the stock answers to questions about that fine line between being peaceable and defending oneself.. this came to front and center during the past several days with that horrific arizona shooting where some 7 folks have lost their lives.
it could have been more if it weren't for several onlookers ganging up on the perpetrator after he emptied the first magazine of bullets, getting ready for his spare magazine.. these onlookers instinctively became aggressive and restrained the perpetrator, one of them choking the man when needed, etc., and etc.. heroes, all of them, in my opinion.. none of them remained passive, thinking that this man wasn't really a threat to them personally so why get involved.
In your wildest fantasy, imagine for a moment, that this woman (the 61 year-old) just happened to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Her letter to the local body of elders could look like this:
Dear Brothers: I have a guilty conscience. I am an elderly sister and was recently involved in a horrific incident where 7 people were murdered by a maniac gunman. Yes, it was me who along with others, used physical force on this perpetrator making it impossible for him to take more lives as he was about to re-load his gun. I was the one, who removed the fresh magazine of 31 bullets from his grasp. It's possible that in my desperation that I may have even broken one of this poor man's fingers when I participated with others in such a wicked deed.
Now that I've come to my senses I realize that I must get right with Jehovah and feel that a confession is needed. You see, none of the people in this crowd were of the types of people that qualify, by your definition, to defend -- Please tell me when and where I must meet with the Judicial Committee for my disciplinary hearing.
Your humble sister.
jehovah's witnesses are peaceful folks, just ask them.
having been one till many years ago i used to know the stock answers to questions about that fine line between being peaceable and defending oneself.. this came to front and center during the past several days with that horrific arizona shooting where some 7 folks have lost their lives.
it could have been more if it weren't for several onlookers ganging up on the perpetrator after he emptied the first magazine of bullets, getting ready for his spare magazine.. these onlookers instinctively became aggressive and restrained the perpetrator, one of them choking the man when needed, etc., and etc.. heroes, all of them, in my opinion.. none of them remained passive, thinking that this man wasn't really a threat to them personally so why get involved.
Thanks, all, for digging deep on this one. I was amused by this WT publication quote (Thanks, TD, though he says it is quite old): The same right of self-defense may be exercised by him for the protection of his near relations or close friends, his brethren.
I can just picture that 61 year old woman and that 74 year old man, who among some others, took action. "Hmmm ... let's see -- are these people near (whatever that means: see above original posting) relations? Are they close friends? Are they brethren?"
I'm quite certain they didn't pause to go through a legalistic checklist provided by some corporate publisher, in some of its infamous progressive and regressive dictates -- effectively paralyzing its flock into turning their heads under such situations. These heroes followed their god-given instinct to value and preserve the life and health of whoever may be nearby -- relation, friend, or spiritual brother.
Len
jehovah's witnesses are peaceful folks, just ask them.
having been one till many years ago i used to know the stock answers to questions about that fine line between being peaceable and defending oneself.. this came to front and center during the past several days with that horrific arizona shooting where some 7 folks have lost their lives.
it could have been more if it weren't for several onlookers ganging up on the perpetrator after he emptied the first magazine of bullets, getting ready for his spare magazine.. these onlookers instinctively became aggressive and restrained the perpetrator, one of them choking the man when needed, etc., and etc.. heroes, all of them, in my opinion.. none of them remained passive, thinking that this man wasn't really a threat to them personally so why get involved.
Good comments, all. I agree with all your sentiments.
What's surprising to me is that no one, including JW lurkers, have posted anything definitive as to the Watchtower's official position. It just may be that WT hasn't been definitive and that's a surprise to me since they are one of the most legalistic corporations I've seen.
Len
jehovah's witnesses are peaceful folks, just ask them.
having been one till many years ago i used to know the stock answers to questions about that fine line between being peaceable and defending oneself.. this came to front and center during the past several days with that horrific arizona shooting where some 7 folks have lost their lives.
it could have been more if it weren't for several onlookers ganging up on the perpetrator after he emptied the first magazine of bullets, getting ready for his spare magazine.. these onlookers instinctively became aggressive and restrained the perpetrator, one of them choking the man when needed, etc., and etc.. heroes, all of them, in my opinion.. none of them remained passive, thinking that this man wasn't really a threat to them personally so why get involved.
Jehovah's Witnesses are peaceful folks, just ask them. Having been one till many years ago I used to know the stock answers to questions about that fine line between being peaceable and defending oneself.
This came to front and center during the past several days with that horrific Arizona shooting where some 7 folks have lost their lives. It could have been more if it weren't for several onlookers ganging up on the perpetrator after he emptied the first magazine of bullets, getting ready for his spare magazine.
These onlookers instinctively became aggressive and restrained the perpetrator, one of them choking the man when needed, etc., and etc.
Heroes, all of them, in my opinion.
None of them remained passive, thinking that this man wasn't really a threat to them personally so why get involved. No, they were unselfishly (and instinctively) thinking of all those around them. Had this man placed his spare full magazine inside his weapon there would have been some 31 more rounds that would have taken numerous other lives, wounding many more to boot.
So, the question is, how does the modern JW feel the fine line is defined when it comes to remaining peaceable or defensive?
Defend yourself but only if you are attacked?
Defend yourself and your immediate family but only if you or they are attacked? Spouse, children, father, mother.
Ditto the above but include siblings -- brothers and sisters?
Ditto the above but also include the immediate family of your siblings?
Ditto the above but also include first cousins, their children, your aunts and uncles.
I think you get the point by now. We could go on and on and on -- including an entire nation of people since we're all virtually related to everybody in some way.
Fact is, none of the lines of blood relations was crossed with that real life example in Arizona. Those people were not even related yet the heroic bystanders stepped in and squelched this sick person from destroying and harming more people.
Recently, someone close to me posed a similar question when talking to one of Jehovah's Witnesses. He cited the recent case of a bystander going into a public rest room where this bystander saw a rapist doing his horrific deed at the expense of some pre-teen girl. The bystander did nothing. The bystander reportedly even suffered no legal ramifications for being passive -- but that's not my point. My friend asked this JW, "What would you have done if you were the bystander?" The JW responded with some diversionary answer (a red herring), in order to avoid a direct answer that he suspected would be weak.
So my dear friends -- the question remains, where does the modern JW feel the line is defined between remaining peaceful and being aggressive?
Len
coffee break time.
what will happen next?.
.
Coffee break time. What will happen next?
